HGK source

[Paul Norman]

In early April I noticed a number of place=village created by Muthukumar
(e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/2250559178) with source=HGK.

At the time I wondered if they might be an import from a source that I
didn't recognize and contacted the user asking them what the source was, but
I haven't gotten a reply in the 10 days since I messaged them, so I'm
sending the question to a wider audience. Does anyone know what source=HGK
is?

Paul Norman
For the Data Working Group

[Paul Norman]

Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 3:14 PM
To: Paul Norman
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source
Paul,
HGK is the abbreviation for the Harita Genel Komutanlığı which is the
Turkish General Command for Mapping.

Do you have any information about what license they release their data under?

[Paul Norman]

Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 3:08 PM
Subject: [Talk-tr] HGK source
In early April I noticed a number of place=village created by Muthukumar
(e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/2250559178) with source=HGK.
At the time I wondered if they might be an import from a source that I
didn't recognize and contacted the user asking them what the source was,
but I haven't gotten a reply in the 10 days since I messaged them, so
I'm sending the question to a wider audience. Does anyone know what
source=HGK is?

Some checks revealed a potentially wider problem.

source=HGK appears to refer to Harita Genel Komutanlığı which is the
official Turkish mapping agency. They apparently have no forms of open data
or other license which we could use the data.

My best guess is the original source of the data is
http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/urunler/diger/gazetteer.html. The metadata has
terms and conditions which would prevent their use in OSM.

I looked at their webpage and couldn't find anything that would allow the
use of their data in OSM. http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/yan_menu/sorular.asp#2
may be relevant and based on the Bing translation it might be allowing
personal use, but not reproductions.

Given the above, it looks like we're not allowed to use their data in OSM
and it must be redacted (removed). I propose to start doing so later this
week, after contacting katpatuka, Muthukumar, and Muruganantham, the three
users who have created the most source=HGK objects.

There a total of 31k objects, of which 28k are version 1. Most are by
katpatuka and most are place=* nodes.

[Orkut Murat YILMAZ]

Dear Paul,

Yes, HGK is the acronym for General Command of Mapping and I guess that
they won't permit this situation.

H. Can Ünen and me are going to try finding some official answers as soon
as possible.

Thanks for your warning.

Best,
Murat

Post by Paul Norman

Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 3:08 PM
Subject: [Talk-tr] HGK source
In early April I noticed a number of place=village created by Muthukumar
(e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/2250559178) with source=HGK.
At the time I wondered if they might be an import from a source that I
didn't recognize and contacted the user asking them what the source was,
but I haven't gotten a reply in the 10 days since I messaged them, so
I'm sending the question to a wider audience. Does anyone know what
source=HGK is?

Some checks revealed a potentially wider problem.
source=HGK appears to refer to Harita Genel Komutanlığı which is the
official Turkish mapping agency. They apparently have no forms of open data
or other license which we could use the data.
My best guess is the original source of the data is
http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/urunler/diger/gazetteer.html. The metadata has
terms and conditions which would prevent their use in OSM.
I looked at their webpage and couldn't find anything that would allow the
use of their data in OSM. http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/yan_menu/sorular.asp#2
may be relevant and based on the Bing translation it might be allowing
personal use, but not reproductions.
Given the above, it looks like we're not allowed to use their data in OSM
and it must be redacted (removed). I propose to start doing so later this
week, after contacting katpatuka, Muthukumar, and Muruganantham, the three
users who have created the most source=HGK objects.
There a total of 31k objects, of which 28k are version 1. Most are by
katpatuka and most are place=* nodes.
_______________________________________________
Talk-tr mailing list
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-tr

--

[H. Can Unen]

Hello,

HGK prohibits every action besides personal use of the purchased maps, so
using HGK data as a source is wrong.

However, there are other sources such as the road maps of Turkish General
Directorate of Highways that we may be able to check and confirm those
place names and change the source tags instead of deleting the nodes.

Is there a way to hide the nodes from display, but make visible in the
editor until a source that we can verify those place names is found?

Can


On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Orkut Murat YILMAZ <

Post by Orkut Murat YILMAZ
Dear Paul,
Yes, HGK is the acronym for General Command of Mapping and I guess that
they won't permit this situation.
H. Can Ünen and me are going to try finding some official answers as soon
as possible.
Thanks for your warning.
Best,
Murat

Post by Paul Norman

Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 3:08 PM
Subject: [Talk-tr] HGK source
In early April I noticed a number of place=village created by Muthukumar
(e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/2250559178) with source=HGK.
At the time I wondered if they might be an import from a source that I
didn't recognize and contacted the user asking them what the source was,
but I haven't gotten a reply in the 10 days since I messaged them, so
I'm sending the question to a wider audience. Does anyone know what
source=HGK is?

Some checks revealed a potentially wider problem.
source=HGK appears to refer to Harita Genel Komutanlığı which is the
official Turkish mapping agency. They apparently have no forms of open data
or other license which we could use the data.
My best guess is the original source of the data is
http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/urunler/diger/gazetteer.html. The metadata has
terms and conditions which would prevent their use in OSM.
I looked at their webpage and couldn't find anything that would allow the
use of their data in OSM.
http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/yan_menu/sorular.asp#2
may be relevant and based on the Bing translation it might be allowing
personal use, but not reproductions.
Given the above, it looks like we're not allowed to use their data in OSM
and it must be redacted (removed). I propose to start doing so later this
week, after contacting katpatuka, Muthukumar, and Muruganantham, the three
users who have created the most source=HGK objects.
There a total of 31k objects, of which 28k are version 1. Most are by
katpatuka and most are place=* nodes.
_______________________________________________
Talk-tr mailing list
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-tr

--
_______________________________________________
Talk-tr mailing list
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-tr

[H. Can Unen]

Paul,

It also says in the link you sent that, to distribute the data to third
parties would be available via the consent of the map owners and paying
them loyalties.

But I still suggest finding another source we can use and change the tags.

Can

Post by H. Can Unen
Hello,
HGK prohibits every action besides personal use of the purchased maps, so
using HGK data as a source is wrong.
However, there are other sources such as the road maps of Turkish General
Directorate of Highways that we may be able to check and confirm those
place names and change the source tags instead of deleting the nodes.
Is there a way to hide the nodes from display, but make visible in the
editor until a source that we can verify those place names is found?
Can
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Orkut Murat YILMAZ <

Post by Orkut Murat YILMAZ
Dear Paul,
Yes, HGK is the acronym for General Command of Mapping and I guess that
they won't permit this situation.
H. Can Ünen and me are going to try finding some official answers as soon
as possible.
Thanks for your warning.
Best,
Murat

Post by Paul Norman

Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 3:08 PM
Subject: [Talk-tr] HGK source
In early April I noticed a number of place=village created by

Muthukumar

(e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/2250559178) with source=HGK.
At the time I wondered if they might be an import from a source that I
didn't recognize and contacted the user asking them what the source

was,

but I haven't gotten a reply in the 10 days since I messaged them, so
I'm sending the question to a wider audience. Does anyone know what
source=HGK is?

Some checks revealed a potentially wider problem.
source=HGK appears to refer to Harita Genel Komutanlığı which is the
official Turkish mapping agency. They apparently have no forms of open data
or other license which we could use the data.
My best guess is the original source of the data is
http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/urunler/diger/gazetteer.html. The metadata has
terms and conditions which would prevent their use in OSM.
I looked at their webpage and couldn't find anything that would allow the
use of their data in OSM.
http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/yan_menu/sorular.asp#2
may be relevant and based on the Bing translation it might be allowing
personal use, but not reproductions.
Given the above, it looks like we're not allowed to use their data in OSM
and it must be redacted (removed). I propose to start doing so later this
week, after contacting katpatuka, Muthukumar, and Muruganantham, the three
users who have created the most source=HGK objects.
There a total of 31k objects, of which 28k are version 1. Most are by
katpatuka and most are place=* nodes.
_______________________________________________
Talk-tr mailing list
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-tr

--
_______________________________________________
Talk-tr mailing list
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-tr

[Paul Norman]

No, if they’re not clean, they need to be removed. They can’t be kept around and confirmed. Also, hiding and making visible contradict each other. Before using General Directorate of Highways maps you need to confirm that the license grants the necessary permissions.



From: H. Can Unen [mailto:can.unen-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 12:42 AM
To: Orkut Murat YILMAZ
Cc: Paul Norman; data-Z81B8n9b9aaGJGYlWa3Ukdi2O/***@public.gmane.org; talk-tr-3+rWM/WnaLOn4i5uJCXUsti2O/***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source



Hello,



HGK prohibits every action besides personal use of the purchased maps, so using HGK data as a source is wrong.



However, there are other sources such as the road maps of Turkish General Directorate of Highways that we may be able to check and confirm those place names and change the source tags instead of deleting the nodes.



Is there a way to hide the nodes from display, but make visible in the editor until a source that we can verify those place names is found?



Can



On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Orkut Murat YILMAZ <orkutmuratyilmaz-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

Dear Paul,

Yes, HGK is the acronym for General Command of Mapping and I guess that they won't permit this situation.

H. Can Ünen and me are going to try finding some official answers as soon as possible.

Thanks for your warning.

Best,

Murat

Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 3:08 PM
Subject: [Talk-tr] HGK source
In early April I noticed a number of place=village created by Muthukumar
(e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/2250559178) with source=HGK.
At the time I wondered if they might be an import from a source that I
didn't recognize and contacted the user asking them what the source was,
but I haven't gotten a reply in the 10 days since I messaged them, so
I'm sending the question to a wider audience. Does anyone know what
source=HGK is?

Some checks revealed a potentially wider problem.

source=HGK appears to refer to Harita Genel Komutanlığı which is the
official Turkish mapping agency. They apparently have no forms of open data
or other license which we could use the data.

My best guess is the original source of the data is
http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/urunler/diger/gazetteer.html. The metadata has
terms and conditions which would prevent their use in OSM.

I looked at their webpage and couldn't find anything that would allow the
use of their data in OSM. http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/yan_menu/sorular.asp#2
may be relevant and based on the Bing translation it might be allowing
personal use, but not reproductions.

Given the above, it looks like we're not allowed to use their data in OSM
and it must be redacted (removed). I propose to start doing so later this
week, after contacting katpatuka, Muthukumar, and Muruganantham, the three
users who have created the most source=HGK objects.

There a total of 31k objects, of which 28k are version 1. Most are by
katpatuka and most are place=* nodes.



_______________________________________________
Talk-tr mailing list
Talk-tr-3+rWM/WnaLOn4i5uJCXUsti2O/***@public.gmane.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-tr





--

[Roman Neumüller]

I wrote about this subject already to the list in September 2011:

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-tr/2011-September/000193.html

I just used

http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/urunler/diger/gazetteer/Turkey_and_Neighborhood_GAZ_011110_ing.xls

for the place names of villages and mountains - I did NOT import it but
manually added them
and adjusted them as needed because the data is good for reference but not
exact enough.

No "maps" where used.

Roman

Post by H. Can Unen
Hello,
HGK prohibits every action besides personal use of the purchased maps, so
using HGK data as a source is wrong.
However, there are other sources such as the road maps of Turkish General
Directorate of Highways that we may be able to check and confirm those
place names and change the source tags instead of deleting the nodes.
Is there a way to hide the nodes from display, but make visible in the
editor until a source that we can verify those place names is found?
Can
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 10:21 AM, Orkut Murat YILMAZ <

Post by Orkut Murat YILMAZ
Dear Paul,
Yes, HGK is the acronym for General Command of Mapping and I guess that
they won't permit this situation.
H. Can Ünen and me are going to try finding some official answers as
soon
as possible.
Thanks for your warning.
Best,
Murat

Post by Paul Norman

Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 3:08 PM
Subject: [Talk-tr] HGK source
In early April I noticed a number of place=village created by

Muthukumar

(e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/2250559178) with source=HGK.
At the time I wondered if they might be an import from a source that

I

didn't recognize and contacted the user asking them what the source

was,

but I haven't gotten a reply in the 10 days since I messaged them, so
I'm sending the question to a wider audience. Does anyone know what
source=HGK is?

Some checks revealed a potentially wider problem.
source=HGK appears to refer to Harita Genel Komutanlığı which is the
official Turkish mapping agency. They apparently have no forms of open data
or other license which we could use the data.
My best guess is the original source of the data is
http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/urunler/diger/gazetteer.html. The metadata has
terms and conditions which would prevent their use in OSM.
I looked at their webpage and couldn't find anything that would allow the
use of their data in OSM.
http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/yan_menu/sorular.asp#2
may be relevant and based on the Bing translation it might be allowing
personal use, but not reproductions.
Given the above, it looks like we're not allowed to use their data in OSM
and it must be redacted (removed). I propose to start doing so later this
week, after contacting katpatuka, Muthukumar, and Muruganantham, the three
users who have created the most source=HGK objects.
There a total of 31k objects, of which 28k are version 1. Most are by
katpatuka and most are place=* nodes.
_______________________________________________
Talk-tr mailing list
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-tr

--
_______________________________________________
Talk-tr mailing list
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-tr

[Paul Norman]

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 1:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-tr/2011-
September/000193.html
I just used
http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/urunler/diger/gazetteer/Turkey_and_Neighborhoo
d_GAZ_011110_ing.xls
for the place names of villages and mountains - I did NOT import it but
manually added them and adjusted them as needed because the data is good
for reference but not exact enough.
No "maps" where used.

Import or not isn't relevant for the legal aspects. Without permission we
can't be redistributing that list of villages and mountains. We don't have
permission, so we have to stop distributing it.

[H. Can Unen]

The link from HGK prohibits the redistribution of maps, Roman is right on
that aspect. The Geographic Names Gazetteer is most probably bound by
different terms and conditions.

The use of the gazetteer is bound by the order of Turkish Armed Forces in
2009, as stated in the link:
http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/urunler/diger/gazetteer.html

I'm trying to find that text to see if it allows redistribution or not.

Can

Post by Paul Norman

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 1:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-tr/2011-
September/000193.html
I just used
http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/urunler/diger/gazetteer/Turkey_and_Neighborhoo
d_GAZ_011110_ing.xls
for the place names of villages and mountains - I did NOT import it but
manually added them and adjusted them as needed because the data is good
for reference but not exact enough.
No "maps" where used.

Import or not isn't relevant for the legal aspects. Without permission we
can't be redistributing that list of villages and mountains. We don't have
permission, so we have to stop distributing it.
_______________________________________________
Talk-tr mailing list
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-tr

[H. Can Unen]

I could not find that document but I found that the gazetteer Roman used
was prepared as part of a UN Group Of Experts on Geographical Names
(UNGEGN) program trying to achieve standardization of geographical names.

Mr. Ulgen will most probably have valuable information on the use of those
gazetteers, given his involvement in the UN, and I don't think the use of
the gazetteer would be limited.

Can

Post by H. Can Unen
The link from HGK prohibits the redistribution of maps, Roman is right on
that aspect. The Geographic Names Gazetteer is most probably bound by
different terms and conditions.
The use of the gazetteer is bound by the order of Turkish Armed Forces in
http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/urunler/diger/gazetteer.html
I'm trying to find that text to see if it allows redistribution or not.
Can

Post by Roman Neumüller

Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 1:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-tr/2011-
September/000193.html
I just used

http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/urunler/diger/gazetteer/Turkey_and_Neighborhoo

d_GAZ_011110_ing.xls
for the place names of villages and mountains - I did NOT import it but
manually added them and adjusted them as needed because the data is good
for reference but not exact enough.
No "maps" where used.

Import or not isn't relevant for the legal aspects. Without permission we
can't be redistributing that list of villages and mountains. We don't have
permission, so we have to stop distributing it.
_______________________________________________
Talk-tr mailing list
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-tr

[Roman Neumüller]

Did you contact Mr Ulgen?
Because pnorman could not wait and eagerly started to redact on 18th of
April...

Roman

Post by H. Can Unen
I could not find that document but I found that the gazetteer Roman used
was prepared as part of a UN Group Of Experts on Geographical Names
(UNGEGN) program trying to achieve standardization of geographical names.
Mr. Ulgen will most probably have valuable information on the use of
those
gazetteers, given his involvement in the UN, and I don't think the use of
the gazetteer would be limited.
Can

[Paul Norman]

Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source
Did you contact Mr Ulgen?
Because pnorman could not wait and eagerly started to redact on 18th of
April...

The conclusion of the discussion was that there might be alternative sources
for place names, but that the HGK data is definitely not ODbL-compatible.

[Paul Norman]

If you find another source you could then use that source, it doesn’t permit
the use of HGK maps.



From: H. Can Unen [mailto:can.unen-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 1:56 AM
To: Paul Norman
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source



Mr Ulgen did not respond after that.



Paul, is the deletion process undoable in case the gazetteer does not have
the same status as HGK maps and permits redistribution?



Can

Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source
Did you contact Mr Ulgen?
Because pnorman could not wait and eagerly started to redact on 18th of
April...

The conclusion of the discussion was that there might be alternative sources
for place names, but that the HGK data is definitely not ODbL-compatible.

[Roman Neumüller]

Oh yeah: that's easy saying - go and find another source!

There is absolutely NO other source!
You in the western world can call yourself lucky!
We in Turkey do have a hard time to find out which village it is under
the cursor because there's absolute NOTHING we can legally use...

Roman

If you find another source you could then use that source, it doesn’t
permit
the use of HGK maps.
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 1:56 AM
To: Paul Norman
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source
Mr Ulgen did not respond after that.
Paul, is the deletion process undoable in case the gazetteer does not have
the same status as HGK maps and permits redistribution?
Can

Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source
Did you contact Mr Ulgen?
Because pnorman could not wait and eagerly started to redact on 18th of
April...

The conclusion of the discussion was that there might be alternative sources
for place names, but that the HGK data is definitely not ODbL-compatible.
_______________________________________________
Talk-tr mailing list
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-tr

[Hakan Tandogan]

Post by Paul Norman

Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source
Did you contact Mr Ulgen?
Because pnorman could not wait and eagerly started to redact on 18th of
April...

The conclusion of the discussion was that there might be alternative sources
for place names, but that the HGK data is definitely not ODbL-compatible.

Just out of curiosity, who did discuss with whom? While I understand
that the turkish HGK can be a tiny little bit restrictive at times
(especially with military and social unrest rearing its head again), I
had the impression that Can wanted to contact Mr. Ülgen about the UN
dataset.

@Can: Did you get an answer, and if so, are you free to share the answer
with the mailing list (and possibly put it into wiki) so we can document
this case once and for all? You might want to ask Mr. Ülgen whether he
wants his email to be shared first, though...


Regards,
Hakan

[H. Can Ünen]

Mr Ulgen is a member of United Nations Geographic Information Workgroup and
right know is enquiring UNGEGN (UN Group of Experts on Geographic Names)
about the status of the gazetteer. I think Paul contacted him at the
beginning of this think regarding the use of HGK maps.

Meanwhile Paul is deleting all the Turkish place names in OSM saying that
HGK does not allow redistribution of its data. However the terms of HGK he
found is regarding the purchased maps from HGK, not the gazetteer which
Roman used to create the place names. I personally think that Roman had done
the right thing, making Turkish OSM data in compliance with the national
place names gazetteer. We should correct its source and use the place names
gazetteer instead of HGK, though.

Paul is not listening to our arguments right now and deleting the data. If
it turns out that we can use the national gazetteer, I hope the process can
be reverted. If not, I say we make Paul redo all the data he deleted.

Can

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Can Ünen

-----Original Message-----
From: Hakan Tandogan [mailto:hakan-D3w0KPjNCk5rRPU3X/***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 10:30 AM
To: talk-tr-3+rWM/WnaLOn4i5uJCXUsti2O/***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source

Post by Paul Norman

Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2013 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source
Did you contact Mr Ulgen?
Because pnorman could not wait and eagerly started to redact on 18th
of April...

The conclusion of the discussion was that there might be alternative
sources for place names, but that the HGK data is definitely not

ODbL-compatible.

Just out of curiosity, who did discuss with whom? While I understand that
the turkish HGK can be a tiny little bit restrictive at times (especially
with military and social unrest rearing its head again), I had the
impression that Can wanted to contact Mr. Ülgen about the UN dataset.

@Can: Did you get an answer, and if so, are you free to share the answer
with the mailing list (and possibly put it into wiki) so we can document
this case once and for all? You might want to ask Mr. Ülgen whether he wants
his email to be shared first, though...


Regards,
Hakan

[Paul Norman]

Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source
Mr Ulgen is a member of United Nations Geographic Information Workgroup
and right know is enquiring UNGEGN (UN Group of Experts on Geographic
Names) about the status of the gazetteer. I think Paul contacted him at
the beginning of this think regarding the use of HGK maps.
Meanwhile Paul is deleting all the Turkish place names in OSM saying
that HGK does not allow redistribution of its data. However the terms of
HGK he found is regarding the purchased maps from HGK, not the gazetteer
which Roman used to create the place names.

The terms on the gazetteer also do not grant the right to redistribute.

People have been looking for another data source. This is not what is
necessary. Even if we get permission for an alternative source of village
names, the HGK data still needs to be removed.

The only way to continue using the HGK data is to get permission from HGK.
Not the UNGEGN, not any organizations, only the HGK can grant permission to
redistribute their data.

There is a discussion about what can legally be saved over at legal-***@.
No one has yet seen a way that the names from HGK can be preserved.. See
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2013-April/007534.html

[H. Can Ünen]

Paul,

We couldn't find the terms of the gazetteer on the website. The terms were
about the printed maps that you "buy" from HGK.

If you find the terms elsewhere, please share it with us. This is why we are
trying to get an answer from the UN about the use of the gazetteer. And the
gazetteer is for public use, as far as know, to achieve standardization on
place names.

HGK is not a valid source, we know. But there has been an error on the
source. Source of the data is not HGK maps, but the gazetteer that is
provided by HGK. So we should change the source field of the data to
national gazetteer instead of deleting them.

Please understand.

Can

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Can Ünen


-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Norman [mailto:penorman-***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 12:00 PM
To: 'H. Can Ünen'
Cc: talk-tr-3+rWM/WnaLOn4i5uJCXUsti2O/***@public.gmane.org
Subject: RE: [Talk-tr] HGK source

Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] HGK source
Mr Ulgen is a member of United Nations Geographic Information
Workgroup and right know is enquiring UNGEGN (UN Group of Experts on
Geographic
Names) about the status of the gazetteer. I think Paul contacted him
at the beginning of this think regarding the use of HGK maps.
Meanwhile Paul is deleting all the Turkish place names in OSM saying
that HGK does not allow redistribution of its data. However the terms
of HGK he found is regarding the purchased maps from HGK, not the
gazetteer which Roman used to create the place names.

The terms on the gazetteer also do not grant the right to redistribute.

People have been looking for another data source. This is not what is
necessary. Even if we get permission for an alternative source of village
names, the HGK data still needs to be removed.

The only way to continue using the HGK data is to get permission from HGK.
Not the UNGEGN, not any organizations, only the HGK can grant permission to
redistribute their data.

There is a discussion about what can legally be saved over at legal-***@.
No one has yet seen a way that the names from HGK can be preserved.. See
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2013-April/007534.html

[Paul Norman]

Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 5:39 AM
Subject: RE: [Talk-tr] HGK source
Paul,
We couldn't find the terms of the gazetteer on the website. The terms
were about the printed maps that you "buy" from HGK.
If you find the terms elsewhere, please share it with us. This is why we
are trying to get an answer from the UN about the use of the gazetteer.
And the gazetteer is for public use, as far as know, to achieve
standardization on place names.

http://www.hgk.msb.gov.tr/urunler/diger/gazetteer.html includes a link to
a metadata file. This includes the statement that

User acknowledges that the Data and Related Materials contain
proprietary and confidential property of GCM. The Data and Related

Materials

are owned by GCM and are protected by Turkish copyright laws and

applicable

international copyright treaties and/or conventions

It does not give permission to redistribute.

HGK is not a valid source, we know. But there has been an error on the
source. Source of the data is not HGK maps, but the gazetteer that is
provided by HGK. So we should change the source field of the data to
national gazetteer instead of deleting them.

If it is a HGK map or a HGK gazetteer does not change the fact that
permission
from HGK or a license HGK is required, and we have neither.